Westminster University & TheirStory Webinar

0:01 Zack Ellis

Hi everyone. Thanks for joining our webinar today. Um, with Westminster University around teaching the entrepreneurial mindset through oral history. I'm Zack Ellis, the founder and CEO of TheirStory. And I'm joined today by three of the main people at Westminster who made this project possible. Uh, maybe I'll just have each of you introduce yourself briefly. And then, uh, Dax, I'll ask you to introduce us a little bit more to the project and how it came to be. But Dax, how about you start us off with a quick intro, who you are role. And from there.

0:40 Dax Jacobson

Uh, hi. Dax Jacobsen, dean of the bill and Viv Gore School of Business. We're at Westminster University here in Salt Lake City, Utah.

0:48 Zack Ellis

Thank you.

0:50 Charlie Warner

Yeah, I'm Charlie Warner, I'm an assistant professor of practice of entrepreneurship at Westminster University and, uh, taught the entrepreneurial mindset class.

1:00 Taylor Smith

Um, my name is Taylor Smith. I'm a communications student here at Westminster, and I was in the class with Charlie Warner this past spring. Entrepreneurial mindset.

1:09 Zack Ellis

Wonderful. Uh, Dax, why don't you kick us off by telling us a little bit about, uh, a little more about you and also, uh, how oral history came into your worldview, um, and where this idea of incorporating, uh, oral history together with entrepreneurship.

1:30 Dax Jacobson

Yeah. At a business school. Why are we talking about oral history? Yeah. Fair enough question. Zack. So, um, really appreciate being here and the partnership we have, which we'll talk more about how this came to fruition. Uh, there's really two pieces to this. One is a personal side, which is I grew up in a really small town in southeast Idaho, and I have a lot of family and friends still in rural Idaho and rural Utah, and love to go on road trips and collect, um, their stories about why they stayed, how they're making a living, What a small business is like running the ranch. Still, those kinds of things even have a podcast that has been dedicated to that. So we're really interested in telling stories. And as a strategy professor, some of the things I've taught in my in my background before I was an administrator, a real big believer in having a mission and a vision personally as well as organizationally. And one of the things that I have felt strongly about is about telling stories of what we call everyday entrepreneurs. So Salt Lake City and Utah are great examples of sort of this dichotomy in the economy where we have these really large, very successful unicorns, which is $1 billion valuation company. We have the silicon slopes because everyone has a silicon something and they're very successful. And then we have a bunch of small businesses, which, um, the IRS and others classify in different ways, but they can be up to 500 employees and, you know, hundreds of millions or dozens of millions of dollars in revenue. And those are great, but those aren't really capturing what I'm seeing as Dean. Around us, in our community here. And we're seeing what what we would call everyday entrepreneurs. There's some literature that calls it micro businesses, but these are often sole proprietorships. You know, one person or 1 or 2 employees making, uh, you know, tens of thousands, hopefully hundreds of thousands of dollars and growing in that way, but really wanted to make sure that we captured their stories. Um, and so I became Dean and saw that this is an area that we wanted to focus on and really decided, hey, we work and we have lots of programs, which we'll get into here where we send our students out in the community, um, teaching basic business and financial and entrepreneurship literacy, supporting small businesses and women entrepreneurs and refugee and immigrant entrepreneurs really overlooked communities and decided that I want to capture the oral history of every, every entrepreneur that we come in contact with. Now, they may say no, and that's fine, but we really want the opportunity to say, hey, we want to capture your story. I think there's value in those voices having a voice in the community and we learn from them. And I think there's value, which we'll get at in our students learning to do an oral history project to, to actually the mechanics of doing that, but also just learning from other stories from the community that they become a part of. So the personal, the professional really came together. And then as Charlie will describe, I came across the right people and the right students who were willing and the right partner in TheirStory to be like, yeah, let's try this crazy idea that you have in a business school. So there you

4:28 Dax Jacobson

go.

4:28 Zack Ellis

Yeah, yeah. So it really started with, um, this idea of capturing the stories of everyday entrepreneurs, stories that we don't always hear so much in the public as much as we do the kind of founders of unicorn type businesses.

4:45 Dax Jacobson

Exactly.

4:46 Zack Ellis

Yeah. And then there was this idea that that could be a part of a class, not just going out and capturing those stories, but there was value to the students in doing this.

4:58 Dax Jacobson

And fortunately, I had an entrepreneur who's a practicing entrepreneur, has lots of experience and works with nonprofits, and was here as a visiting, which Charlie will get a chance to talk to. And we were going to roll out this, this mindset class that we hadn't taught in a couple years. And I said, Charlie, what do you think? Should we try it? And then I'll let Charlie take it over

5:18 Dax Jacobson

from there?

5:18 Zack Ellis

Absolutely, absolutely. So. So Charlie, tell us more about you, your your experience as an entrepreneur and coming to this idea of teaching a class around this, um, take us through it. Yeah.

5:32 Charlie Warner

Yeah. So I'll speak to both my, my experience as an entrepreneur and why everyday entrepreneurship is so important to me personally. And then also speak to, you know, my pathway into, into teaching and my relationship here at Westminster. Um, but I've been an entrepreneur for most of my life. Uh, I joke that, you know, even back to elementary school when I was selling pogs and Pokemon cards, uh, to my classmates. Um, but, you know, through this process, I've, uh, I've run a number of different types of businesses. Um, and, you know, I never thought about going to business school, you know, originally, um, I just kind of like, like fumbled through my own experience of it just because I wanted to do the thing that I was passionate about, whether it was photography or outdoor guiding or what have you. And I saw a lot of folks in my community that were doing the same things, um, that, you know, maybe had gotten a physical therapy degree and was working for a hospital, but was really burned out and unhappy and wanted to explore like, what do I, how do I do this on my own? How do I impact my community in a way that actually works for me? And so, uh, over the years, I've worked with a number of, um, of local small businesses here in Utah and some other places that are those everyday entrepreneurs. They're just people that have a passion, that have a sense of purpose and want to create an environment in which they can share their skills and have a positive impact on their neighbors, on people that they actually know they can build relationships with. Um, and so, uh, that's kind of my background in entrepreneurship. I ended up going back to, uh, get my master's here at Westminster actually, um, during Covid when I was running a different kind of company. Um, and that's how I met Dax and got into, into the university here. And after I graduated, I was invited to be an adjunct. Um, and so I've been adjuncting for a while. And then a couple of years ago, um, I was invited to early last year, I guess I was invited to be a visiting professor, um, in which Dax kind of planted the seed of oral history. And for me, you know, I think that there's a lot of value in learning from story. I think that we're, as humans, very wired in our evolution for human connection and human story. And, uh, and so for me, it's a lot more helpful to have somebody tell their, their actual story, not just the facts, but the like the the feelings that come with the facts. Um, that, uh, and from the source, right. It's, it's different when you're reading a case study about, um, you know, the Waltons from Walmart or Elon Musk or, or even a small business owner, you know, but it's, it's a different experience as a student, as a researcher, as somebody who's reading, it's distant. And so for me, um, when Dak sort of pitched this idea of oral history, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I love storytelling. I also have a podcast and have done a little bit of that. Um, but I was like, well, let's try it. And so, um, one of the classes that I was tasked with was entrepreneurial mindset. And it was like Dak said a course that hadn't been taught in a few years. And so I, I was developing it and I was like, oh, we can weave this oral history sort of pilot, uh, this, I don't know, we call it first pancake. Um, this idea of like, okay, how do we, how do we, how do we actually do this thing? And as a true entrepreneur, we have to start somewhere. And so I'm like, let's just let's just try it. Like, what's the worst that can happen? And so we, uh, we sort of layered this oral history process over the entrepreneurial mindset class. And, uh, what was interesting about it is that I was able to, with some effort, um, match the, the sort of steps that you, a student would go through in the oral history process with the immersion into, uh, the mindset of an entrepreneur. And, uh, it's really important to distinguish skill set versus mindset is that mindsets, the experience, the, you know, the conditioning, the, the internal experience of an entrepreneur versus the actual skills. And, um, what I've learned in my own personal, uh, business and the work that I do in practice is that that relationship between the mindset that human, uh, and the skills is an essential, like kind of ground level for the skills to be built on. So, um, so for me, mindset is very important. I was really excited to do this and we were luckily able to, to make it work, uh, as a first pancake and, and I'm looking forward to make iterating on it.

10:05 Zack Ellis

Yeah. You know, it was an entrepreneurial endeavor in and of itself to take this first idea, you know, and see what happens when it meets reality. Uh, and like you said, you have, you have your first pancake and then you go from there. Um,

10:21 Zack Ellis

so.

10:21 Dax Jacobson

Zack, if I could jump in real quick, uh, to Charlie's point, I, you know, I had this vision of we're going to, we're going to capture the oral history of everybody that we come in contact with. And the interviewing part and getting that story is where the real value will come from. Because doing market research, you know, and that is real critical. And it is it's become that's true. And I think that's part of what came out in Taylor can talk about it, but to give Charlie a ton of credit for this, I mean, I, I had the genius of the idea. I'll give myself that and say like, hey, here you go. But Charlie, Charlie's like, well, I think you can map this whole thing to a mindset. Like, I think the whole process of doing a project is an entrepreneurial mindset that we can help our students learn from. And I think that is really, really important to highlight is that it's not just the interview, it's this whole process we think maps to something that lots of people could do, whether it's for an entrepreneurship class or a communication other classes. That's like there are skills associated with doing an oral history project that are really valuable for learning in lots of different contexts, but especially in this case, for entrepreneurship.

11:22 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Well, I want to, um, in a moment, Taylor. I want to hear more about kind of where you were coming from as well from the student perspective. Um, but just to double down for a moment on, on setting up the, the course, is there any more that you can say about, you know, what you really were We're hoping that the vision of success was for this initial pilot, and also what, if any, reservations you had coming in because this was something new. Um, so say more about kind of the two sides of that, that coin.

12:00 Dax Jacobson

I hope that students would would try it. And that of course, was like secretly hoping every interview would be incredible. Um, I was also worried that it wouldn't be the case, but also that I threw this class on Charlie. And Charlie's credit was like, yeah, I'll teach mindset. I have some ideas of how to do it. And then it was like, well, oh, by the way, what if we throw this oral history piece on top of it? I don't quite have my partnership with with Zack figured out yet. We're going to figure out some tools, some some way to make this happen. And class starts in a week. And then class had started and we were still finalizing this. There's not a lot of faculty that I could have done that to and with. And I think in most of higher ed, that's the case. You don't go to someone and say, hey, new class, new prep, and you've already started the class, and I'm going to ask you to do this whole other new thing. Figure it out and chart his credit was like, let's do it. And she ran with it and it was incredible. So that's from my side. I'm sure Charlie has some other.

12:57 Charlie Warner

Well, you know, it kind of ties back into what what entrepreneurship is. I mean, entrepreneurship is just an adventure. And so it's like, well, no plan is ever going to go to plan. So we might as well just try it. And so for me, you know, going into this, um, you know, my expectations for the process was similar to Dak's. I was hoping that the students would produce really quality, uh, interviews and, and to highlight folks in our community. I mean, these are, these are everyday entrepreneurs. I mean, we had, we had one of them that's just down the street at SugarHouse Coffee, who is a real, like fundamental force in our ecosystem here. Um, and so, uh, you know, I wanted to make sure that those stories got captured, uh, in a quality way. I wanted to make sure that the students had a meaningful experience learning how to, you know, uh, ask meaningful questions and thoughtful questions, be able to listen empathetically and connect around story, not just like normally, like the tasks that have to be done for homework. And so for me, that was kind of my intention of like, let's just see what this is going to be and hopefully we'll get some quality work out of it. Um, and then some of my reservations were, I've never done oral history. I've done podcasting before. I've never done oral history before. I actually don't know a lot about oral history. It sounds very formalized. Um, I also am a new academic. Um, I've, I've kind of got training wheels in terms of my academia. And so I don't speak that language very well. And so, um, kind of coming in a little bit of imposter syndrome with, oh, okay, I'm a practitioner. I can understand how to do business, build business, work with business owners, work with entrepreneurs. I have some experience working with students and experiential education, but at this research level. I don't I don't know that language. And so I was feeling a little bit hesitant there, but I was like, well, we gotta, we gotta try it anyway. And like I mentioned, we were, we were kind of building it as we were flying this plane is, you know, it was like week to week. It was, okay, the next week we're going to do this thing. We don't actually have it set up. So let's, you know, let's just go through the next step as we're doing it. And so some of the students actually, um, had to do their interviews or set up their interviews, um, prior to setting up the, TheirStory, uh, you know, relationship and, and having access to the platform and all of that. And so, um, but that was a really meaningful, I think, anyway, and Taylor may have a different opinion of this, but I thought that was a really meaningful immersion into what it's like to be an entrepreneur. As an entrepreneur, you don't know what next week is going to look like. You don't know what the outcome is going to be. You just do your best to show up and try it. And in a little bit, I'll kind of show like how I mapped all of the modules through, you know, with the oral history and what the students had to do. And, um, but again, it was like, what are we going to do today? Well, whatever we can do today. Um, and some students, you know, they were met with like challenges and, and some of the entrepreneurs were very excited and then disappeared and ghosted them. And so we had to pivot a lot. We had to do a lot of these activities that entrepreneurs are required to do. And so I think it was a cool, a cool way for students without having to learn the skills of business necessarily like the like the tactical skills, they were able to learn these more like the mindset, the mindset, I guess, of, um, yeah, what does it feel like to be an entrepreneur day to day?

16:22 Zack Ellis

Yeah, you, you really did find a way to create a process that embodied, uh, what are the ups and downs and what, what, what are some of the emotional hurdles you have to get over? Um, and we'll dig more into that structure. I think it was really fascinating how you mapped it, and.

16:40 Dax Jacobson

That it might be a great point of time here to just give a shout out to Hannah. Laurie Heine, right. Who, uh, historian in the state of Idaho, a friend of mine, friend of yours and connected us to. And we connected and tried to figure out something that we might do together. And then this project was like, this is going to be it. And she has been in the background connecting Charlie and I to resources to, to saying, you can do this. Go for it. Don't be intimidated by oral history. We can help your students. We can help you. Just, just try it and make it happen. And so her support was has been really instrumental as well.

17:14 Zack Ellis

Absolutely. She is. I will double down on the shout out to Hannah Laurie. She is, uh, a force to be reckoned with. Um, both, both as a history professional and one of the few history professionals, the only one I, I know of, but I'm sure there are more who, uh, who also has a minor in entrepreneurship, right. You know, she has so she also led these worlds very, very well. Um, so before we dive into the structure, um, Taylor, I want to hear a little bit more from your perspective. You know, just tell us a little bit more about you, how you heard about the class and what expectations you had coming into the class.

17:55 Taylor Smith

Yeah. So I'm a communication student and I kind of wanted just to like diversify my class schedule. And I thought the entrepreneurship class sounded like really interesting. And I think I ever like I've done before. Um, and obviously when the class started, Charlie mentioned the oral history project and I was like, okay, that word is kind of scary. Like, I don't really know what that means. And Charlie said that earlier. So, um, I was kind of nervous, but once she explained it, like got me like really excited. I was like, this could be something really cool. And it's local to like me. I'm obviously going to school here, but I'm also I'm from here as well. So it kind of had like a little special place in my heart because all the areas are like places I've mostly visited and like spent time in. So it was really interesting to hear, um, from like their stories. There's obviously like always challenges with planning, trying to get a hold of people. Um, I was lucky enough and I met, like I called three entrepreneurs and I heard back, they like called me back and they're like, oh, like, let's record. I was like, okay, like, you got to slow down. Like we're not ready yet. Like, I would like love to. I was like, but we have to like get some things in a row. And they were really understanding. So, um, there's always challenges, but it ended up working out in the end and it's been a really positive experience since.

19:03 Zack Ellis

Yeah. And what, if any, reservations did you have coming into the class?

19:09 Taylor Smith

Um, so I work at like a school paper, so I do a lot of interviewing. So I guess that part didn't scare me too much, but the thought of like interviewing somebody for something so formal, like I'm usually just trying to get a quote out of something, but like, be able to listen to a whole story and tell their whole story. I was kind of nervous for that because you want to ask the right questions. You want to make sure you're really getting every single beat, like bit and piece of what you can. Um, so I was kind of nervous for that and maybe like a little hesitant, and I didn't really know exactly how it would go. But once I interviewed, it was like so smooth and it was like a conversation and not, um, like a formal, like obviously I interviewed, but it wasn't a formal interview. So

19:48 Zack Ellis

So yeah. Yeah. Um, last thing I'll ask here. Was there anything that you were coming in hoping that you would get out of it or hoping to, to learn?

20:00 Taylor Smith

Yeah, I would say just I wanted to hear more about like the entrepreneurship experience. There's been a few entrepreneurs in my family. Um, and I feel like a lot of the time you hear about like the negative stressful part because, um, they're your family and they're going to like, just be honest, like brutally honest with you. Um, so I just kind of wanted to hear about like a different experience. And it was really interesting to hear from two females as well, um, about why this wasn't so important to them and like why they wanted to make this happen for them. And I really liked, I really enjoyed that.

20:29 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Charlie, why don't, um, you take us a little bit more into the actual structure of the course and how this played

20:39 Zack Ellis

out?

20:39 Charlie Warner

Totally. Let me pull up my screen share here. Share this window. Okay, so, um, this will kind of go through, uh, how I mapped the course. Um, so originally, you know, prior to the week before class or whenever the timeline was of let's, let's, uh, let's add this oral history. The original design for the class was that, you know, each week we would go through a different module of a mindset. So this could be like the differences between mindset and skill set. It could be, um, uh, uncertainty or navigating like resources and constraints, um, the practice of iteration, stuff like that. And so each week we would go through a mindset module. It's only a two credit class. And so it wasn't like a really extensive class. But then what I designed is that each mindset module would have a personal application in class. We would go through a little bit of study, we would go through like an exercise. Um, and then the students would reflect on their own mindset and kind of create a mindset manual for themselves in the future. Um, well, it turns out this oral history again, kind of maps really well onto this, this flow of the modules. Um, and so the oral history that was, that became their like main project, um, of the, of the course. And um, they were not only able to sort of apply this, um, these mindset topics in, in their own experience of navigating the oral history process, but also, um, was able to identify with, uh, with their entrepreneurs, various aspects of mindset in themselves. Um, and so each module, I'll kind of go through all of the modules and how it maps, but we started with mindset versus skill set. Um, and that's, you know, students and this is, this first one was a pilot process. And so it was again, the first pancake. And, um, so they didn't get a chance to, to review existing oral history of previous entrepreneurs. Now, I probably could have found oral history somewhere. Um, but we were again flying this plane as we were building it. And so, uh, didn't have that, that forethought. Um, but going forward, uh, all of the students in future classes will actually review the recordings from this first version. Um, and get an understanding of mindset versus skill set. Then there's identity and self-belief. Um, there's a lot of, in at least my experience of working with entrepreneurs, there's a lot of imposter syndrome and, and self doubt. And so talking about what does it mean to identify as an entrepreneur versus a small business owner? Um, and so the students then will present a summary, um, and, and kind of get up in front of class and experience that maybe whatever that is for them of like, if they're a strong presenter or not, but their own sense of self-belief while presenting a summary of the previous recording. Um, which also creates sort of a initial, uh, practice for them for the final project. Um, then we go into risk and uncertainty. Uh, this was probably my favorite one and probably the student's least favorite one. Um, but that, uh, that module was all about, um, each student was, uh, was randomly assigned a certain area of the state. Um, they literally just like drew cards and their homework was to cold call five entrepreneurs, um, within that area. Now some of the Utah, uh, areas are very, you know, concentrated of entrepreneurs, right? Salt Lake County, Utah County, um, but there's other areas of Utah that are quite rural. And so that was a little bit more challenging for some of those students to connect with potential entrepreneurs, but the homework was call five doesn't mean that you have to get five. You just have to get one. Um, but call those entrepreneurs, see what would happen and, and notice what that uncertainty feels like for you. Um, some of the students, you know, uh, who were maybe more of the unicorn style of entrepreneurship kind of thinkers, um, you know, they were, uh, they were very eager to talk to some of the, the larger founders that are based here, the Ryan Smith's and, uh, some of the folks that are at these larger companies. And of course they didn't get any response back. Um, and so we did have to pivot sometimes, um, with filling in. And so that's where I would tap into my network or the network of the university to find folks, um, that were, that were eager to do that. We have a program here called banking on women that have entrepreneurs, um, that we help kind of, uh, teach on like entrepreneurship skills to, um, And so we have a good, you know, roster of folks that have great stories. Um, and so some of those, some of the entrepreneurs came from that roster. The next, um, kind of segment was resources and constraints, um, navigating the process of confirming and scheduling their entrepreneur. Then we did narrative where students will, they actually had to interview each other. And this one was a really important element not only to get used to utilizing the platform, which I think at that point we had the platform, um, but, uh, teaching students, um, how to ask questions to kind of generate a narrative for the story, um, versus just sort of going through again, a check box of, of questions, but really being thoughtful and listening in of like, let's, let's follow up and I'll give Taylor some, some applause here is that Taylor did a really great job of asking additional follow on questions, um, Without without having a lot of chatty back and forth, like some students wanted to have a little bit more chatty back and forth with their entrepreneurs where, um, you know, this process is going to kind of let students feel into, okay, this is what it feels like to be a narrator versus an interviewer and practice, you know, questions and listening. And what did it feel like on both sides of the, of the microphone? Um, then we went into leadership and ethics. They created a preparation document. Um, so that they were prepared going into the interview, uh, and finalizing the scheduling and the confirmations. Then we went into value creation. So this is where they, they, uh, each student prepared. And this is where Hannah Laurie was super helpful in both the preparation document and the deed of gift. But students created, um, or not created, but, uh, had the entrepreneurs sign a deed of gift so that this work can be archived appropriately, um, and concern, uh, confirmed consent for the entrepreneur. Um, so students had to go through the process of speaking to the value of this, uh, this project and, and what it can do for research and for the archive. Um, then we had, uh, iteration and validation. So students went through the process of completing their interview. They also had a pre-call with their entrepreneur early on so that they could kind of get to know each other and, and not go in cold. Um, but then they went and used TheirStory platform to record the interview. And then finally, um, they submitted a final presentation reflecting on their process of going through the oral history, but then also the, what, like, based on the interview that they had, what mindset module of these modules was actually named within the story of the entrepreneur. And so Taylor will speak to value creation, but every, every student had a different sort of module that they reflected on and why. And then they showed a clip and I'll speak to, you know, the, the, their, TheirStory platform was incredibly helpful, um, for us in this process. Um, and again, we used some of the interviews early on was before we had TheirStory sort of set up. And I can, you can really see the difference between the quality of interviews, um, from using that, you know, I just used my podcast platform versus TheirStory because TheirStory allowed us to go through this in a way that everything is in one place. It was a lot easier for the students. There's a lot easier for the entrepreneurs. And so, um, I'll speak to, you know, recording the interviews. Um, it was much, much better. Uh, TheirStory was like so streamlined. And then they were, the students were actually able to upload their preparation document, the deed of gift, uh, everything into TheirStory and it automatically transcribed everything. And so that was huge is that there is, you know, this AI component that made that process easier. And I'm sure Taylor can speak to the tedium of going through a like, word for word transcript. And so being able to have that be a lot easier made this experience better, and it still allowed students to go in and make changes. If words weren't, you couldn't hear them properly or, or whatnot, but it was very easy to review and formalize and make sure everything is up to date. Um, but the real, uh, I think a useful tool that allowed us to integrate the learnings was this clip generation is that, you know, the students created this, uh, presentation. They were able to just go into TheirStory and create a clip of that, um, segment of the module and then share it in their presentation. And so we'll see that clip in just a moment from, from Taylor. Um, and then now I, I mean, this was, this is new for us and I'm really excited about it, but now we have access to this research portal, which has everything where we can publish it and it's searchable and it's, you know, we can, we can, uh, search it and use it. And it's very visual. It's very user friendly and has a good UI to it. And so, um, I think that that's been fundamental to this process. And I would say that we wouldn't have been able to, uh, formalize this as well without TheirStory platform. I think that it would have gotten, it would have felt too big for us to have it in this class had we not had this platform. Um, and so I think that being able to use TheirStory and, and, you know, have these tools for our use, um, is really key to like the success of our pilot and therefore the, you know, the second and the third and the fourth pancakes that will come down the line and any other projects that we, we work on. And so thanks to, to you, Zack, for putting this together. But yeah.

31:18 Zack Ellis

Yeah, well, I'll just say thank you. And, uh, And and you're hired, um, uh, for being our, our new, TheirStory rep. So, uh.

31:26 Charlie Warner

Callahan.

31:27 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Um, well, maybe a great segue, um, for Taylor to share a little bit more of like, what, what was it like for you to go through this process?

31:41 Taylor Smith

Yeah, it was definitely intimidating at first just because you're talking to someone that's in your community and established as an entrepreneur. And that's kind of intimidating, I think at times. Um, but overall, like everything went smooth. It's obviously hard to schedule things with, um, because I was interviewing two entrepreneurs. So that just kind of like adds into like another level of difficulty of trying to make everyone's schedules work. Um, but overall, like it was a super successful and positive experience. TheirStory made it so much easier. I, I don't like transcribing things and like when I saw the, the transcription and TheirStory, I was like, oh, this is like heaven, like this is so nice. So having like those little tools just made it like so much nicer. And it didn't. I wasn't stressing about as many things as I had like that I needed to be.

32:26 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thinking back to the, um, different elements that Charlie, you had mapped out, one, one that stands out to me is that moment of having to interview a peer. And I'm curious, maybe Taylor, to hear more from you about what was that part of the project like? Um, interviewing a, another student in, in the class.

32:51 Taylor Smith

It's definitely, um, can be like a little awkward at times just because it's like, well, like, I like kind of know you like we have class together every day. So like, what am I going to talk to you about? But having like that practice of knowing Charlie said this before, like how to be the narrator or like the interviewer, um, is like really beneficial. Um, because you kind of get to like, know your stance of where you're sitting at, like whatever certain situation you're in. Um, but it helped. I think the whole class, like be able to know like, what are good questions to ask, which then we we like formulated as a class, which is really nice, but like, what's going to get us like the authentic and true story and what's just kind of like, we don't want yes or no answers. We want like explanations and whatnot.

33:31 Zack Ellis

What did, what did you find to be true about what created a good question versus one that wasn't what you wanted?

33:39 Taylor Smith

I feel like just like sometimes I think people are intimidated just to ask, like ask the question they want to ask. And it's like, just ask it. Like, I think everybody wants to hear it. The listeners want to hear it. Um, so I just say like, don't be shy and practicing with our peers of like, what's a good question? What's not a good question? Like you could tell a difference in how we answered the questions. And that really made the difference. It's like, okay, like I wouldn't ask that to my entrepreneur because I kind of got this wishy washy answer and I like this answer better.

34:10 Zack Ellis

What were some of the main challenges that you experienced through the, um, the time in the course.

34:20 Taylor Smith

I would say the biggest challenge is just trying to get everybody together and find a date. We obviously were following a loose course schedule because everybody was on different timelines and interviewing different people at different times. But I interviewed my two entrepreneurs at the very last second, and that was really stressful to me because it was the last day I could do it, but I got it done. Um, but just not knowing when you were going to hear back from your entrepreneur because a lot of it was just email back and forth. And that's people are fairly good at responding, like responding on email, but it's easier just to pick up a phone. And when you don't have that access, it definitely makes it challenging.

34:55 Zack Ellis

Yeah, scheduling definitely can be hard, especially thinking about the time frame of a, of a course. Uh, there are just constraints that you have to deal with. Mhm.

35:08 Zack Ellis

What were some of the things that you felt like you most took away from this experience? And in what, if any ways, do you feel like you changed or your perspective grew or shifted through the course?

35:22 Taylor Smith

Yeah, I was just really fascinated to know how much Katie. I interviewed Katie Manhart and Taylor Matkins and their owners of Lucky Ones Coffee up in Park City, and they employ individuals with disabilities. And so I was just like, really fascinating to hear about TheirStory and like, why they were so passionate about like what they do and being able, like they were so authentic with me. And they told me nothing was off limits, which was like really nice. Not that I was going to like, it was just nice to know that they were so willing to be open with me. Um, because TheirStory is like really personal to them. Um, and it hits close to home, I think. So that was really interesting. Um, and then remind me your second question.

35:59 Zack Ellis

How do you think you've changed if, if at all, from the beginning of the course to the end of the course?

36:04 Taylor Smith

Yeah, I think I kind of viewed entrepreneurship as something like really scary. Um, when I first started this course and kind of like there's a lot of uncertainty, which there always is with anything, but, um, being able to hear from two entrepreneurs that have made like a successful business and now have a second location in Salt Lake City was really inspiring to me because it is possible and obviously everyone's story is not the same. Um, and so like knowing that there are different paths for everyone was really, um, interesting and nice to hear, especially as I'll be off on my way of college soon. So

36:33 Zack Ellis

So yeah. Yeah. Was there something different that you saw in their stories versus your own family's entrepreneurial experience?

36:41 Taylor Smith

Yeah. I mean, obviously just like different businesses are different, like there's better success rates for certain things. Um, I can't say anything like for certain, but it was just nice to hear about like a successful and it's not like other people that there aren't businesses don't make it aren't successful, but it's just maybe not the right time or something. And I think maybe Katie and Taylor's was the right time and right place.

37:04 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Yeah. Um, that idea that there are different paths and that I think is in some ways Reassuring. Um. Yeah. Yeah. Charlie, what did you witness? As the professor, in terms of what you saw from students, what they either struggled with what growth moments? Um. Tell us about those dynamics and the learnings that, that you saw from, from students.

37:33 Charlie Warner

Yeah, I think, I think a couple things

37:35 Charlie Warner

really popped out is one that, you know, it was an uncomfortable process, um, sort of unintentionally designed to be so, but also intentionally designed to be. So, um, is that, you know, cold calling is an uncomfortable process, not knowing what, you know, the next two weeks, not having every deadline mapped out perfectly, um, is an uncomfortable process for students. And so having them sort of sit through that discomfort and recognize that like, okay, I can, I actually have the resiliency and the, and the capacity to, to navigate that. Um, I thought was a big learning. And some students, I mean, like Taylor was able to quickly, you know, confirm some entrepreneurs, even if scheduling was tough. Others, you know, they, they, I mean, one student in particular was like really excited to, uh, to interview with somebody who was kind of aligned to his interests. Um, and, you know, he reached out to a couple folks in that arena and he got, he got two responses, but ultimately they, they just ghosted him and he was really disappointed and kind of bummed out. And, um, and so we ended up, uh, having him, you know, chat with, uh, actually my father who is an entrepreneur as well. Um, and that actually created like a cool relationship of mentorship between them. And I saw that a lot too, is that, you know, one of the students, um, is interested in the future of perhaps having their own, their own cafe or their own restaurant. And she, um, she found Emily pots of sugar House coffee, and I was able to make a connection because I know Emily and and it was a really cool relationship that they built. We had another student who kind of went, you know, a little bit big in terms of who she was going to connect with and had some ambitions with finding these, you know, these two women leaders that are very, very well known in the community, um, as developers and ecosystem developers. And she got in with them and they've been, you know, kind of buddies since, like they've given her some mentorship. And so the relationship like this, seeing the students kind of evolve in their own experience of sitting through discomfort, um, and the entrepreneurial sort of experience mindset wise, but then the, the relationships that were built and the impacts of those relationships is that these students wouldn't have normally had an interaction with them unless I had invited those entrepreneurs as guest speakers or something like that. And so, um, that was very, very cool. And I would say that was, I think my, like my proudest moment is, uh, is witnessing those relationships get built and, uh, and recognizing the value that not only the students got from those relationships, but the entrepreneurs also have mentioned it. Um, you know, multiple of those, uh, narrators have, have, you know, talked to me about how cool that would experience was. And they're, you know, these, they weren't expecting TheirStory to be, uh, shared and yet alone archived, which hopefully many of these will be archived either at the university level here or potentially further into other other repositories. But, you know, normally they would just kind of run their business and then and then whoever was the, you know, the people that built them or built relationships with them immediately would know them. But otherwise, that's it. And so this is a really cool experience to capture these stories and have them archived and be able to use them for study and, and have it impact the students and the entrepreneurs in that way?

41:10 Zack Ellis

Yeah, there's there's both the value of the recordings themselves. There's the value in how students are able to interact with those stories as primary sources, and to then also the relationships that you build and the trust that you build with these individuals and the opportunity for further engagement from here. Um, it really is kind of a multi-layered, um, uh, benefits and system that, that you're building. Um, I mean, you really are cultivating an ecosystem of everyday entrepreneurs in Utah, um, past and present and future. Um, maybe, uh, Dax and Taylor, if you also want to reflect a little bit on what you're most proud about, um, from this, this experience. I'll start with you. Taylor.

42:05 Taylor Smith

Yeah. Um, so we obviously had to do a lot of like research prior before we started recording. And, um, it was interesting to hear like they, they was just like really cool. They were like, we've never had this type of platform before. And like, we're so glad that we get to like share our story. And there's a lot of things that were out on the internet that were false because I called them before about it and they're like, yeah, that's wrong. And I was like, okay, like, let's like get it right. Like, let's, let's like, make sure like people like, know, like where you met, like what you did in like college because it's like that background is important. So it was really like, interesting to me that we kind of got as like Westminster, like being part of like the school that I got, I got, I kind of got to fix TheirStory, um, and get it right and make sure it was like true. So I appreciated that.

42:48 Zack Ellis

Yeah. Yeah. And what about for, for you, Dax.

42:52 Dax Jacobson

Yeah. I mean, the outcomes at the course level, the, I mean, you just heard Taylor a great example for individual students in the course level for Charlie. Um, we, we open this up to faculty and staff to come watch the presentations. I don't know how much Taylor knew that that was going to happen. We had a really incredible turnout from fellow faculty and staff that were interested in what just what Charlie had been up to with the students, and some really positive feedback from faculty that have zero to do, or really probably any interest in entrepreneurship in this sort of level. Um, we're just really blown away by the student experience and how well the students did and presented. And then the other is just the support we've seen from the community, the state of Utah, some conversations about how we might expand this. And then the provost, um, had forwarded me an oral history grant proposal that I had already seen. But the fact that that he is recognizing that this is important to us and was like, hey, this is something you should apply for, isn't it? You're doing oral history over there, I think is really cool and aligns with who we are as a, as a private liberal arts school that's really embedded in, in our community. And so I think that the community and leadership on campus are seeing it is really rewarding for me as well.

44:03 Zack Ellis

And can you double down on that just a little bit? In terms of what value do you think a program like this can provide to the core objectives of the business school and of the university?

44:20 Dax Jacobson

So without getting too much into it, there's always this, this view at any university that the business school and the professional school is more generally are these very large demanding, um, off on their own appendages to what happens with the rest of the campus. And sometimes that can be the case more than others. We're very much we're very proud to be part of a liberal arts institution. Uh, my faculty work really well across campus. I feel like we're really ingrained in what the mission of the university is, which is to be involved in the community, to elevate the student experience, to elevate voices that don't normally get to be at the table, these kinds of things. And I think when we're showing that, hey, we're not only interested in entrepreneurship, we're interested in the stories of everyday entrepreneurs and our community members, nonprofits and others that are right here around us. And we're putting, you know, we're putting our money where our mouth is. We're out investing in a partnership with someone like TheirStory. We're actually sending students out to gather these, these oral histories we're reaching out across campus to, I mean, we have the opportunity to use a podcast studio that is used in arts and sciences here. We're reaching out to other faculty to say, are there ways that that your students or your expertise might help us do this work? And so I think it shows, um, it shows the business school is willing to, to be a key partner on campus in the community where sometimes there's this view of they're focused on big business, going to make money on jobs only. And we're just cranking out these students, which are all important outcomes, but are not, are not true or accurate to everything that we want to do and represent as a business school.

45:57 Zack Ellis

One of the things that stands out to me in what you're saying and everything we've talked about, is that, um, oral history. Stakeholder storytelling and engagement. Engagement. It drives engagement. It drives relationships. It drives collaboration. This is a process that builds an ecosystem and more trust and relationships across the university and across the entrepreneurial ecosystem itself. And that is in and of itself a huge benefit. Those relationships that that get built.

46:32 Dax Jacobson

Absolutely. I mean, I think the, the number one thing, whether I'm going to talk to faculty across campus about partnering with us or how that we might help them is to listen. And if there's anything you could boil down to, what we're trying to do with these oral histories is to stop and to listen to folks. And so that's a great skill for our students. And it's something that we're trying to mirror as a dean and as faculty, like Charlie is, hey, let's first listen to our ecosystem and see what they have to tell us. And then and then let's see if there's ways that we can support and help and encourage those those people in those communities.

47:07 Zack Ellis

Yeah. And if that, if that, uh, skill of empathetic listening isn't at the heart of entrepreneurship, I, I don't know what is. I mean, oral history is the customer discovery process, right? You know.

47:18 Dax Jacobson

At least the kind of entrepreneurship we want to be part of.

47:20 Zack Ellis

That's right, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, so maybe to, to bring us, uh, close to a close here, I'll say let's do two things. One is Charlie would love to hear your final kind of lessons learned. And then why don't we end on a clip from one of the stories, um, and recordings themselves that, uh, that Taylor had had done. How does that

47:44 Zack Ellis

sound?

47:44 Charlie Warner

Sounds great. Yeah. I'll pull this back up here. Um, and I'll say, you know, I think what, what's been really cool for me in this process that I didn't expect is that, um, you know, I, when I was. I've been listening to these oral histories and, uh, you know, I like storytelling again, because it, it makes it personal. It makes it human. Right? It's like when I hear the voices of Katie and Taylor from Lucky Ones coffee. Like I, I can understand a little bit more about what is actually going on in their, in their life, and I can see myself in them. And so when I was listening to Taylor's, uh, oral history as an entrepreneur, I was actually, um, not only impressed, but also like personally moved by TheirStory. And I learned something for my own business from this oral history. And so it kind of touched on all of these, these goals that, you know, whether I was aware of them or not. But, um, yeah, I thought that was really helpful. We'll come back to the, to the clip, but some of the lessons learned as we've talked about is, is teaching empathetic listening. I think that, um, you know, with AI and with technology and with social media and, Covid and those things. I think that that, um, bringing more human relationship into the academic experience is only going to make our students, um, you know, better in the future, uh, and have and have more, uh, yeah, connection, have more success in the future if they can learn how to listen. Um, now some students were really natural at this. Taylor's very natural. This Taylor's used to interviewing, um, other students are, uh, needed a little bit more practice. Um, you know, I also learned to structure the process loosely as we talked about. It was very fluid. It was happening as it was happening. I'm not going to tighten that up too much going forward is that that process was actually very helpful. Um, and it reinforces that entrepreneurial experience. And so keeping it very fluid versus highly structured is going to be helpful. Um, and let it be challenging and imperfect. That was a big part of this is that, um, you know, I was thinking, oh, it needs to be like formal and sort of tight. But the challenge was part of the learning. Um, and then lastly, like, uh, you know, we use TheirStory for about 60% of the total interviews for the class. Um, but 100% of that was so much better in terms of quality, in terms of experience on the student level, on the, on the interviewer level. And so it just made the process so much easier. Um, so we'll go back to the clip, um, for so this is, uh, Taylor and Katie from Lucky Ones coffee in Park City and this is what, um, Taylor produced.

50:32 Zack Ellis

Uh, if you can just pause it, um, you might need to reshare your screen and just turn the tab audio on.

50:39 Charlie Warner

Okay, let me try that. All right.

50:50 Zack Ellis

Let's try again from the beginning.

50:53 Charlie Warner

Better.

50:57 Zack Ellis

So let me. Let me try.

50:59 Charlie Warner

Okay.

51:01 Zack Ellis

All right. I will share my screen. All right. Let's, uh, we'll do the same thing. Let let me know if you can hear.

51:12 Taylor Matkins

Imagine how many businesses could have this feeling if they were employing people with disabilities. And that's also the showcase we want to do as well is that, you know, we love to showcase all the things that our crew can, is capable of and all the jobs that they do. But at the end of the day, like there's such an untapped potential, an untapped market of people with disabilities that are ready to work and ready to get in that job market. So we also want to showcase to other businesses. You're like, hey, employ our crew. They're going to really push you forward and bring in that good vibe.

51:39 Katie Manhart

And I think people care more now than ever, like where they spend their money. And, um, and, you know, you vote with every dollar you like your money, you want to put your money towards what you want to see in the world. And so yeah, um, you know, just kind of sharing that with other businesses that people like you get brand loyalty based on that, that they want. They come in not because they buy into me and Taylor, they come in because they buy into Juliana and Tommy and everyone they get to connect with and talk with behind the counter. And so, I don't know, it's just a special place.

52:11 Zack Ellis

I love that. Um, and Charlie, can I show what you built in terms of the research portal real quick? Totally. So this clip is, you know, one of just many of the stories and moments that came out from this. And so this was something that, uh, Charlie built, you know, and is possible to build through, through our platform, uh, just with, you know, a few clicks and everything from being able to, um, you know, look for, say, places where people talk about, uh, challenges and maybe I'll just do that as like a, a semantic search here, overcoming challenges and be able to find places where people talk about this, um, you know, here someone says, you know, challenges, regrets. Oh, man. Uh, there's tons along the way, um, to being able to say, uh, what are themes across the collection? I'll even let this run where you can actually chat with the, um, the collection itself. And so imagine the next, uh, semester, next time you run this class where students are starting with the archive and exploring and some of those first pieces that you were talking about around identity and so on, that, how much easier is it going to be to actually explore the archive, find moments, use the interviews and those stories as primary sources, um, and continue to build out this, uh, this archive. Um, so this is so cool. I think, um, how this can be built on, uh, cohort after cohort. And, you know, we can see here being able to find places where people talk about community as, uh, as a core value, uh, and so on. But, um, to, to wrap us up here. Uh, Dax, anything else that you want to share just on what's next? The future of this program?

53:59 Dax Jacobson

Yeah. Continue to do it. I mean, we we proved the concept can work. That first pancake was not a horrible. We could still eat it with some syrup and some other things to make it tasty. And we're going to make better pancakes going forward. Think about those that because you just showed, if we had my colleagues at business schools across the country, across the world, where we had a collection for each of our own communities, and then across those communities, and you could engage with the stories and what you're finding, the kind of impact you could have on policy, on research, on just the community voices in a way that when someone says, you know, 70, 80% of our of our economy is small businesses, and you think that you're going to speak for that, you know, as a monolith, when there are so many individual stories that make that up from the 500 person small business to the one woman shop on Etsy. Like those voices have so many different needs and challenges, and if we could capture those stories and then engage with those stories in a way that TheirStory lets us. I just think what's next is can can we can we have an impact? Right? Can we gather those stories that are valuable on their own? And then can we use those stories to have an impact in our community and beyond?

55:12 Zack Ellis

Well said, beautifully said. Um, anything else before we wrap? Taylor. Charlie.

55:20 Charlie Warner

This is a fantastic, uh, first pancake and an opportunity. And we couldn't have done it without, uh, without TheirStory. Um, I'm really looking forward to more of these and, and tightening up the process just a little bit. Um, so it's even easier for future students, but thanks to Taylor and her cohort because they really blazed the trail on this one.

55:38 Taylor Smith

Thanks for your guidance.

55:41 Zack Ellis

Thank you all so much for, for joining, for participating and for making the first pancake. Talk to you all soon.

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About TheirStory

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